Timothy Zercher 0:00

Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. Thank you. Thank you, Timothy. Absolutely. So I'm really excited to talk today and learn a little bit about you. I know you have a unique story. Your work sits at the intersection between behavioral health and justice reform. Can you tell us a little bit about what drew you into this space and what what made this mission so personal to you?

Jeremy Schall 0:23

Well, I didn't enter this space as a professional. I entered this space as a defendant and a patient. So my experience with addiction, my experience within the justice system, I believe qualified me for this space to really set a tone for a more trauma-informed per approach to those that are entering our community. So I saw how the systems break people rather than build them up and help them heal. So I just spent too many years watching people get written off as numbers rather than opportunities. So while I was incarcerated, I watched others bloom from inside a system that's out to beat them down and understand the value behind real support and connection. I love that. I love that. And what brought you to the role that you're in now? Well, so we all have our moments of clarity in life. Mine drew me into being of service to my incarcerated community. For many years, I taught substance abuse education, journaled. It's more like that Victor Frankel approach of trying to make sense of other people's suffering. And what I found was that people ask me all the time about prison, and most people think of violence, drugs, gangs, racism, all these different things. But what I saw it as is an opportunity that if when I had my moment of clarity, that if I was just someone that didn't know how to love themselves, then more than likely than not, the guy next to me feels the same way. Because what I found is that people that love themselves don't put themselves in harm's way. So I'm surrounded by people that put themselves and their community in harm's way. So I knew that self-esteem, self-worth, and the values that we have were compromised. And when people are, when they compromise their values, they lose their inability to reason and make good decisions for themselves. So with that being said, I chose not to waste my pain, commit to service while incarcerated, got my education, pioneered re-entry programs, and then got out, worked as a peer support and remaining humble and curious, learning more about the Medicaid systems that support people going through the re-entry process. It's a complicated system. But the more I learned, and I believe that what you learn and remember governs your future behavior. So I just excelled within the healthcare field with the goal of bridging the gap between healthcare and corrections.

Timothy Zercher 2:49

I love that. I love that. So you talk a lot about connection and community in recovery specifically. Where do you think traditional systems still fall short in supporting justice-impacted individuals?

Jeremy Schall 3:02

Well, I think you can get the all the therapists and case managers you want and continue to check yourself into rehab all you want. But until you connect with that relationship that you have within yourself and this universe, and I believe that everybody's spiritual path is theirs and sacred and theirs alone. But once you're able to tap into that power, connection remains to be the ultimate cure. So what I feel is that we have missed that real gap to really empathizing with those who are isolated, lonely, who've been this just doesn't go with incarceration. This goes with community in general. I think that connection is the ultimate value when it comes to rehabilitation, re-entry, overcoming substance use, overcoming anxiety, depression. It is that walk beside you approach. That's why I value peer support so much, because I think it is that relatability, right? And how can someone feel vulnerable enough to communicate with someone if they hadn't walked through them shoes in some capacity? So relatability is and connection. Like, for instance, I don't have kids. I've never had a child die. But, you know, a grieving mother would only be able to relate with a grieving mother. And so with that being said, that relatability, that empathy, that compassion is what solidifies that connection and helps people grow out of that darkness that has been cloaking them for so long.

Timothy Zercher 4:33

I love that. I love that.

Jeremy Schall 4:34

So connection.

Timothy Zercher 4:35

Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes complete sense. It makes complete sense. And I completely agree. I think as an entire nation, we're a nation and a culture that struggle with connection. I've worked across outreach, operations, and recovery leadership, which is where you are now as a CEO. What have you learned about building programs that actually help people reintegrate and sustain long-term life change?

Jeremy Schall 5:00

Well, recently, the project I was working with and my previous provider was with the Juvenile Transfer Offender Program. Juvenile Transfer Offender Program is youth that have picked up a serious felony that are transferring through into adult probation. I was once a drug court participant in treatment courts, and that's what JTOP is. It's a treatment court program. And as a youth, I remember navigating a system that was very fast, and I misunderstood it. And I misunderstood the consequences as a result, plus with drug acquisition and combination of other factors that addressed health risk needs that I had, lack of employment, lack of resources, all these different various factors. I then chose to go back all these years later and implemented a program called Community Outreach Resources and Education. And what that implementing that program is what allowed us case managers and peer supports to walk alongside this youth and address those health risk needs in the community. That keeps them in the community. People find meaningful employment, they're able to contribute to their families, they're able to go back to school, they're able to have that walk beside you approach. So that remains to be, I think, one of the greatest values that we've had as a community. It's the kind of reputation also that grows a client-based and sustainable where values are aligned in a in such a way that it's just being really good humans, really, and just showing up for other people in the community, showing that you care, walking beside them. Does that answer everything?

Timothy Zercher 6:38

Yeah, no, that definitely does. That definitely does. Thank you. And I want to push deeper on that. What have you found is the hardest part of growing a team or an organization that can do that, that can help be a good human, walk beside the people.

Jeremy Schall 6:51

Hey, it's walking beside your employees, right? Creating an opportunity for to really take a look at the culture, especially when you come into a new organization, and doing a SWOT analysis almost like on the behavioral, yeah, because it's easy to get burned out in this field. It's easy to get burned out. So really increasing your opportunity for your staff to be competent enough to understand that they have to leave everything that's going on outside of this in this world, that when they walk through the door, that we're a patient-centered organization and that they're our ultimate goal to achieve that health risk, social needs that have become barriers to them in their life. And then outside of work, supporting our own team through whatever health risk needs that they have, because I have noticed that a lot of people that work in behavioral health have behavioral health issues there themselves, right? So it's really strategizing with the whole team to come to a solution to bring that ultimate goal to fruition, and that is that patient-centered organization and culture.

Timothy Zercher 8:01

That makes complete sense. And it ties that ties back, right? The way to serve your interview people at the world.

Jeremy Schall 8:08

Yeah. It's hard sometimes, especially like if you're working for an organization that has a bunch of normies who've just gone to school their whole lives, that really don't understand the the values that person is really not aligned with. And how can you help them make that connection, right? To create good outcomes. The lived experience approach within organizations, even though they have behavioral health issues themselves, I feel is creates better outcomes. Honestly, it's strange, but it works.

Timothy Zercher 8:36

Yeah. No, it makes complete sense that it ties back to the very first thing you said. It's all about connection, right? It's all about connection. It truly is. Once you're connected with your employees, you they you can create a good team. Once your employees are connected with the people you're serving, they can serve them well. It makes they can connect to the patient. Absolutely. So since we're a marketing agency that specializes in behavioral health, we have to ask some marketing type questions. The first one is what works best right now outside of word of mouth when it comes to client acquisition for your you and your team.

Jeremy Schall 9:05

So this is an interesting. So I know it's all partnership based. Yeah, but it's also like letting go of my strategy, right? Which is fine because I think that there is enough opportunity for every behavioral health agency. And that is tap into your local justice system. And the reason why is that what I have found is that every organization that I've worked with since I've been out, about 85% of our client base is justice impacted or has been involved in the justice system in some sense or fashion. Yeah. So you have a lot of different entities. You have treatment courts, you have the Arizona Department of Corrections, and you have adult probation. For me, I have shifted quite a bit and leaning more towards adult probation. And I would sh I would be certain that the numbers in various states are very similar. So we have 1,300 inmates on average released back into society through the Department of Corrections. Then you have 87,000 people on probation in Arizona. That means that they are in the community. And then you have various populations in our different treatment courts that are currently navigating the system, probably on wondering whether they're gonna complete this program or get some kind of sentence as a result of a consequence. So you have all these intersecting points for intervention. If there's only 1,300 inmates that are being released, then we understand that some of those also will be released directly to probation. Probably a majority. So credit to Shonda Breed and the Supreme Court out here who have made adjustments when it came to the stipulations that govern the body of probation. The stipulations here in Arizona went from 21 down to eight, which basically allows the probation officer more flexibility to help that client rather than just send them back. And you have to have a system that works for the individual, not penalizes them for every single mistake that they make because we're infallible, right? We're gonna make mistakes. And if to circle back, what people learn and often remember governs their future behavior, then implementing new coping strategies, even at the probation level, talking with our probation teams to help give that intersection of treatment as an option rather than incarceration.

Timothy Zercher 11:56

Absolutely. That makes complete sense. Thank you for sharing your secret sauce.

Jeremy Schall 12:00

Um it's not really a secret sauce. I mean, yeah, it's it makes it plain and simple. And math doesn't math doesn't lie, right? If there's that many people on probation, what are you doing as an individual that's working in this space to promote community safety, right? Like I don't want anybody stealing my mom's lawnmower out of her garage, right? And what are you doing to support our probation teams whose caseloads are somewhere in the near 70s or 80s, depending on staff shortages? Um, and so what are you doing to support our also our number one intervention team? And that's the police, right? What are we doing to support our victim advocacy, the networks, the nonprofits? I think and education. Education is a powerful tool. That's a powerful intersection too for our emerging adults, especially at the community college level. There's all these different spaces that work together. So creating a strong interventive space is a good strategy.

Timothy Zercher 13:00

Yeah. Well, it helps everybody, right? It helps the industry. And it helps everybody and everybody working in the in the space. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Jeremy. I really appreciate you taking time, appreciate the work you're doing. And uh and I also appreciate the story I think that you represent to a lot of people. I think it's powerful.

Jeremy Schall 13:16

Well, being incarcerated can become your greatest asset. And Victor Frankel said something very important that if you're no longer able to change your environment, then you're challenged to change yourself, right? So what type of environment are we creating within our incarcerated systems that promote growth and stability? And credit to the Department of Corrections out here for implementing the peer support strategy within the incarcerated system to help rebuild a punitive system that has been there for decades. Right. The amount of work that's being done in Arizona is a huge credit. And these justice agencies are truly listening to us.

Timothy Zercher 13:57

Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Jeremy Schall 14:01

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, sir.