Timothy Zercher 0:00

Liz, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate you taking time.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 0:03

Thank you so much. Appreciate being here.

Timothy Zercher 0:05

Absolutely. So, first question I always like to ask all of our guests what brought you into applied behavioral analysis?

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 0:11

I struggle with this question sometimes because I don't have the greatest story, but it is what it is. It's how it happened. I fell into it. I had an undergrad in psychology. What happens after four years of college with an undergrad degree in psychology? I mean, the world is your oyster at that point. So the lovely folks at Melmark, New England, Arita Gardner and Helena McGuire took a chance on me and it was just a perfect fit. And it made sense to me. And just the science behind the field just was something that was missing from my psychology education. And then when they brought in this the science component, I was like, oh, this is it. This is what I needed.

Timothy Zercher 0:45

That's awesome. So then at what point did you realize that you wanted to build your own practice instead of staying in kind of strictly the operational clinical role?

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 0:54

So when I was certified, it was in 2006. So it was a fairly newer field. And I originally am from New England area. And as I moved down south and started working in different school divisions down here, because that's kind of what we were doing at the time, either working within a major clinic program or schools were starting to pick up behavior analysts at that point. So I started doing that and I was seeing that there were so many layers and so many complications. There's a lot going on with a school and everything. And then they were trying to squeeze in the ABA there. And I didn't see good quality ABA getting directly to the population that it needed to get to as fast and as quickly as it needed. And as simply, it was really overcomplicated by what was going on in the school division. Schools are complicated, education's complicated, people are complicated. So I wanted to kind of streamline ABA to the individual because I was like, this science is magical. It's amazing. It's fantastic. We need to get this to people. I opened EMG in order to make that direct connection between the science and the folks who needed it the most.

Timothy Zercher 1:55

Yeah, I love that. So that was in 2008. You mentioned it here, and I think I've seen you talk about it before too. But what is one example of kind of the gap in quality support that you saw before you started your own practice? What helped inspire that?

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 2:09

There was a lot of work, like a lot of paperwork. And I often see this with educators too. We want to get these people that are trained and built and made and to deliver services to people. Like there are people out there that are meant to support and grow other individuals. And they're not built to deal with insurance companies or paperwork or documents and just so much bureaucracy that goes on with all of this sometimes. And they get bogged down in those systems, and then they don't get a chance to do what they do. My passion is really like overriding those systems, creating systems that kind of help cover those things and then push people ahead and be like, okay, now you get with you because that's where you need to be. I take care of all the other stuff. And understanding the science helps give me a perspective to come from, because I also am a behavior analyst. I know what they're trying to do. And so I know where they're getting at. And I understand what the big picture is looking like when I'm coming up with the systems for them.

Timothy Zercher 3:08

I love that. It's almost quality of care via customer care, right? Of just making it simple and easy to do.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 3:15

Yeah. I want to make it able for you to get the ABA. That's what I want.

Timothy Zercher 3:20

Absolutely. It makes complete sense. So continuing to talk about access, as Baba president, you are actively advocating against Medicaid caps that could limit ABA access. From your perspective, what do you think is at stake for providers and families if those caps go into place?

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 3:36

Well, I'm going to put this right out there first is that we know that there is fraud and waste and abuse that is happening. And absolutely under no circumstances is that acceptable or okay. I think if you ask any good professional in anywhere, they're going to denounce that and say, no, this is not okay. And but what we're seeing as a major issue is that when you put a cap on services, it's mostly impacting the individuals who need it the most. Individuals that are out there that need 30, 40 hours of behavior analysis or support, they're the most critical. They are the highest need category and they are going to suffer the most from something like this. Again, I'm not saying that there's not waste and abuse. There definitely is, but impacting the people that are impacted the most is definitely a concerning way to go about it. So hopefully we can find a better way to deal with this situation, this issue without hurting the folks that is supposed to be helping.

Timothy Zercher 4:30

I love that. I think I think that's it's a very thoughtful approach. I think most people gravitate towards simple answers and putting a cap is a simple answer, but it's probably not the best answer.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 4:38

Yeah.

Timothy Zercher 4:38

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 4:39

Yeah.

Timothy Zercher 4:39

So as you've grown your organization, what have you found is the hardest part of growing your team, growing your client base, all of that?

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 4:47

So I have a small business. We are currently, we are not always, but we are currently all women and it's all BCBA run and all of our leadership team is our behavior analysts. So we stay very, very true to the science, very close to the science, really dialed in on what our values are. And sometimes it's hard to keep up with the Joneses. It's no mystery that there's a lot of private equity that's involved in our field at this time. And sometimes companies like that or bigger organizations are partially funded, you know, they'll have access to be able to do things that we can't do. And that's frustrating because there might be situations where we're investing more money and funds and resources into clinical support and clinical care because we want to make sure that the quality of our treatment teams, our treatment is really hot. But we can't always do a bonus for this or a bonus for that, or you know, so like I said, keeping up with the Joneses, no matter who they might be or how they're funded or what they're doing, or this company does this and this company does that, and everybody loves something new and sparkly. It's like, oh, did you hear that so-and-so does and so and so did that? And we're like, well, okay, but so weeding through that and figuring out the hiring and the staffing, the retention tools that are actually gaining traction and working to just not what's happening right now. And what long term can we continue to do as an organization? Not something you can just do this year and it'll go away eventually.

Timothy Zercher 6:07

Absolutely. What can you do consistently? Because one time, one-time actions, especially when it comes to employee engagement and team engagement, honestly, they often hurt if they're a one-time patch instead of helping.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 6:18

Yeah.

Timothy Zercher 6:18

So we are a marketing agency, so we always have to ask some marketing questions. First one is what is working best for you right now, especially outside of word of mouth when it comes to client acquisition.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 6:29

And I just kind of mentioned it a little bit. At the end of the day, no matter what, we return to our values. What is mostly important to us? And we just recently had to do it today in a leadership meeting. Actually, we've been doing it for the last couple of weeks in our leadership meeting, is we kept coming up with different responses to a problem that we're trying to solve. And at the end of the day, we didn't get the answer that we wanted. The data drove us in a direction that didn't align with our values. And quality and individualization of services is our probably two of our highest values regarding our services and regarding employment. And when it came down to that, even though our data was saying, hey, do response A, it didn't align with individualization and quality. So we chose response B, which as a behavior analyst, I was like, we're ignoring the data, but that's how I've grown as a behavior analyst. When my gut tells me no, I went with my heart. So stick to your values no matter what.

Timothy Zercher 7:20

And I think that that comes through in your marketing, it comes through with how you engage with your clients. And I think people appreciate that.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 7:26

I hope so.

Timothy Zercher 7:27

It's visible, right? And it might not be visible at first glance, which is where marketing agencies come in, but it's visible once they've had conversations, once they've engaged with you for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 7:36

It's truth. It's transparency, it's truth, and it becomes your core foundation. And I don't think you could steer yourself wrong if you have those pillars in place.

Timothy Zercher 7:44

You become more stable in every way.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 7:46

Yeah. Sometimes it's hard.

Timothy Zercher 7:47

It's always the best thing, is often the hardest thing, right? So, what is one marketing tactic that you are either just watching really carefully in the marketplace or actually considering for your team?

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 7:57

There's a lot of treads out there. What are the spaces that we've been leaning into lately, going in online and what we're posting on, and really kind of putting out there what our company culture is about, who we are about, what it's like to be a part of this space. How are you going to fit in here? And what does that feel like? And is this what's right for you? I don't have a $10,000 sign-on bonus, but I have a work home for you where you're going to be heard as an employee. So really advertising our values and our culture and how we make choices and what's important to us. And I think hopefully that's what people are ultimately looking for. I have my team is more of an aged team. Some of us are quite seasoned and saged, as we like to say it, but they stick around. I have folks that have been on my team for 15 years and they've come and they've gone too. And it's because there's a culture that goes on here. And I know that's kind of trendy right now, too. I was recently involved in some research last year that we're looking at getting published, and we did some surveys that really highlighted people didn't care about money. They didn't care about benefit to a certain extent. But at the end of the day, if they didn't feel good about where they worked and their work didn't feel good about them, that it didn't matter all of those other things.

Timothy Zercher 9:07

Yep. Absolutely. And so that I love that you are talking about that because it's like you're preaching my message too. And the amount of time I talk to my clients about it doesn't matter if you say that we're experienced, because everyone says they're experienced. It doesn't matter if you say we take care of our people, because everyone says that. It matters that you're different and this is how you're different. And people need to understand that and feel that, right? And that's what you're talking about, like making your culture actually stick out and shine and be the primary recruitment tool. And I think it's really strong.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 9:34

I'm sure somebody has the data that shows like it's more cost effective and resource effective to keep your employees safe than it is to replace them. So I'm all about that.

Timothy Zercher 9:44

Yes. I don't remember the name of the consultant I worked with one time, but the number was it's three times. It's three times more expensive to hire a new person when you include the waste of time and interviewing and training and spin up and the mistakes that they make and the clients you lose because they made mistakes. It's insane.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 10:02

It's a lot of work. So I like to get it right the first time.

Timothy Zercher 10:04

Yeah, and keep the good talent.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 10:05

Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

Timothy Zercher 10:07

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate you spending some of your valuable time and and sharing some of your insights.

Dr. Elizabeth Matthews 10:12

Beloved it. Thank you so much for having me.

Timothy Zercher 10:14

Absolutely.