Timothy Zercher 0:00

Well, Kelly, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate you taking time.

Kelly Ferris 0:03

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on.

Timothy Zercher 0:06

Absolutely. So I always like to start out by asking what drew you into this field.

Kelly Ferris 0:10

It was indirect, actually. I was an undergrad in UC Santa Cruz. I needed a summer job in order to not go home and kind of justify staying away. It's hard to go back. And I found a job ad at a house. And so I showed up, and this mom was running two in-home AVA programs for twins on the spectrum. And the job position said teach the nine-year-old to shoot a basketball, ride a bike that summer, take him to the beach and go hiking. So that was not a hard summer job decision. And it turned out that I ended up joining his team for the last two years of my undergrad. This mom is the late 90s. So she was flying in experts from all over the US. ABA was a little hard to come by back in those days. And some of the experts that she was flying in were from Washington State. So Dr. Stacy Shook and Michael Fabrizio. So that was sort of the start of my journey. I found behavior analysis through basketball and bike riding and summer beach time. I fell in love with that kid. He was amazing. And I definitely fell in love with the science. So I ended up moving to Washington to go to UW for undergrad and continue my work with both Michael and Stacey. It was pretty incredible.

Timothy Zercher 1:28

That is awesome. That is awesome. Yeah. Very cool. That's very cool. I find that a lot of people in this space have roundabout ways of discovering the space. Like it's not one of those things like firemen or absolutely.

Kelly Ferris 1:39

And I think back to the time in a room with experts where I really had no idea who I was getting FaceTime with. Bridget Taylor made a summer debut. I just I can only like think back and I'm like, wow, I hope I did not say something.

Timothy Zercher 1:53

That is awesome. So if you don't mind, what has kept you passionate about this work over the years? Because I know you're very experienced in the space. He's been doing this for a long time now.

Kelly Ferris 2:02

Yeah, I think change and outcomes. The science is pretty powerful. And getting to partner with families and relationship with the clients, phenomenal colleagues. I think it really keeps you tied in inherently in finding behavior analysis in the late 90s. My story is a little unique in that I simultaneously found precision teaching, which is sort of a fringy thing in behavior analysis, not something everyone does, but my introduction to behavior analysis was simultaneous with precision teaching. And so I think my love for measurement, I know that sounds like a completely scientifically goofy thing to say, is pretty strong. And so I think when I think about the progress that kids are making, the sensitivity of our measurement system really it can kind of fuel you through on the days that are harder and harder work. Having a data system that lets you know and confirms that things are working can be really steadying.

Timothy Zercher 3:05

Absolutely. Well, and also just motivational, right? Like beyond beyond anything, just knowing that you're actually having an impact of some kind is the whole goal. So instructional design is often overlooked in ABA, I think. What are most teams getting wrong, or what are they missing, and what should they be doing differently?

Kelly Ferris 3:23

Yeah, so I referenced Michael Fabrizio, a dear friend, mentor, a previous business partner, used to have this saying, kids should get t-shirts. And on the front of the t-shirt, it would say, I'm here to learn. And on the back of the t-shirt, it would say, Don't waste my time. So my relationship to instructional design is really a commitment to not wasting kids' time. That front-end analysis of thinking about what is it that we're actually trying to teach? What kind of thing is it? How are we going to do it? And wrapping measurement around it. So we have this ever consistent feedback on are we hitting it? Are we actually teaching what we endeavored to teach? Or did we drift a bit? And so for me, I think again, the precision teaching component, but here at ORL, we spend tons of time on that front-end analysis. I feel really grateful to mentors that introduced me to Temon and Markle's work on instructional design and that I really received explicit instruction. So I would just, my recommendation is if your program didn't cover that, that there are continuing education ways of pursuing instructional design and it's really worth it. Our clients deserve it, that we are equally invested in not just bringing them instruction, but bringing them really well-designed instruction.

Timothy Zercher 4:42

Absolutely. So you spent years doing exactly that, helping build programs and supporting clinicians. What do you think are some of the elements that make an ABA program truly effective for both the child and the family?

Kelly Ferris 4:56

Gosh, it is such a beautiful convergence of so many critical features when you do hit the sweet spot. I think about my time always as temporary, that sometimes I really do get the benefit of long relationships and getting to know people across really big spans of time, but that ultimately I should be a temporary part of their journey. And so really trying to ask questions at the front end, but over time through a relationship, really listening and observing where is it they're trying to go? Where is it that this kid wants to go, perhaps separately or independent of parents, but also jointly and where's the family want to go, and making sure that our work is really guided by their life story, not bringing in too much of it should go this way or that way, but bringing our science to back up the journey that and the direction that they are working to head towards. So we think that achieving that, so those critical parts and that convergence, getting everything together at once, it's particular. And so I think one of the things that our team brings to that is really deliberate clinical wisdom. So when I was fresh out of grad school, I was not ready to leave that, achieve that, or deliver that. So one of the things we do is make sure that our teams are stacked with people who have a lot of different levels of experience because everyone's got a lens. And I think that guiding a kid's life requires a lot of expertise. So trying to make sure that people on different parts of their clinical journeys are part of the kids' support team.

Timothy Zercher 6:34

Absolutely. That's awesome. That's awesome. So we're a marketing agency that specializes in this space. So we always have to ask some more marketing questions. First up, what is working best for you right now in terms of gaining new partners, new clients?

Kelly Ferris 6:48

Yeah, clients come. Like, I think we still don't have enough provider for the number of kids seeking services. What's most important to me is we don't really have a pipeline problem. I think there's a lot of people still really desperate to access service. I want to make sure that families feel passionate about the provider they're working with. So we kind of do a lot of front-end time and relationship developing through the intake process. We are not fast, but we are focused on making sure families have an assessment of us as much as we have an assessment to say, do I have the right clinical team to match your specific and unique needs? So we don't serve off the top of a wait list. We match from someone's clinical expertise to the client and the presenting needs. So that matchmaking, I think, sets us apart and I think also helps us identify families that are looking for a really close connected relationship over starting something fast and quick. So that's been a good strategy for us.

Timothy Zercher 7:54

No, it makes complete sense. And that is, I think, one of the strongest parking strategies. I think a lot of people overlook. When I ask that question, a lot of people say SEO or digital ads or traditional ads or whatever.

Kelly Ferris 8:07

We updated our website. We did the SEO. But it isn't what we rely on. Yeah.

Timothy Zercher 8:14

Exactly. What really matters is demonstrating that you're different to the people looking for options because you're focused on relationship. That's great. Some parents don't care about that. They want speed. Great. Go somewhere else now instead of wait three weeks in our process and be pissed, right? I think that's something that a lot of people miss. It's good that you guys get it and you guys are paying attention to that. What is one kind of marketing tactic or strategy that either you're just watching really carefully in the marketplace right now or that you're even considering for your own team?

Kelly Ferris 8:43

Well, this interview is new, to be totally honest. It's not what I do on a regular basis. So I guess willing to try out some new things. The invitation came. So I said yes. So thank you for this. I think, you know, we are pretty consistent in presenting at local and regional conferences, sharing our clinical work. Everyone at ORL kind of identifies as a scientist practitioner. So staying close to absorbing the literature and as precision teachers, and again, going back to our love of measurement as much as our work as clinicians and serving who we serve, trying to bring discoveries out and highlight them and disseminate them out back to our colleagues is also a passion. So I think that keeps us building relationships with our local community and even broader behavior atlantic community.

Timothy Zercher 9:34

Yeah, that makes complete sense. That makes complete sense. Especially, I mean, if you don't have a pipeline problem, then you have a service problem. You need to get in front of the people that can actually help expand your services, not necessarily Absolutely.

Kelly Ferris 9:45

Yeah.

Timothy Zercher 9:45

Yeah. That makes complete sense. It's a good strategy. I I approve.

Kelly Ferris 9:49

Oh, thank you. Well, that's good news.

Timothy Zercher 9:51

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate having you. We appreciate the work you're doing in your community. I know is significant. So thank you.

Kelly Ferris 9:58

Much appreciated. Thank you.

Timothy Zercher 10:00

Absolutely.