Timothy Zercher 0:00

Clint, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate you taking time out of your morning.

Clint Hardy 0:04

Thanks, Tim.

Timothy Zercher 0:05

Yeah, absolutely. So I always like to start these podcasts by asking kind of what drew you into behavioral health. I find it's almost always a unique story.

Clint Hardy 0:14

Yeah, so I mean, I'll be fairly brief, but started personal for me. Both my brother and I had behavioral health challenges growing up. After I addressed some of my issues with treatment and in other areas, I then helped my brother address some of his issues or get to treatment. Then at 19, I was working out at a Gold's gym and ran into a manager while I was exercising at one of the local adolescent residential centers in southern Utah. When he heard about my background, he thought I might be a good fit for his program and working with the kids there. And so that's kind of what started all at 19. So from there, you know, behavioral health is a pretty dynamic, large field. So I've you know been able to work in kind of a variety of different capacities and areas in the field. And so going from practice or residential treatment to research to therapy and other areas and then other domains of research, right, has kind of kept me interested. But ultimately, too, is just helping other people. So just seeing people improve is rewarding.

Timothy Zercher 1:17

So that's kept me there as well. I think everyone has different reasons for joining the behavioral health industry or vertical, you could say. And I think almost everyone stays because of the actual impact that they get to see. That's why me and my agency are in this business because it's like, wow, I can really you can really see people uh improving, fixing their lives, et cetera, which is really cool. So you've worked in the clinical care side, which you mentioned, you've worked where you've worked in research and you've also worked in leadership. How has that kind of mix of experiences shaped the way that you think about what actually helps people change and make a change in their life over time?

Clint Hardy 1:56

Yeah. Well, to address a couple of different components of that question. First, I think it's really critical that these areas connect, especially clinical care and research. And so working across both in direct practice, also in research and research across multiple domains, medicine, psychology, social work, and the biological sciences. I mean, it all needs to connect with practice. So I think that's critical for one. And then sometimes we got to be careful as clinicians or mental health practitioners because that's easy to get into murky waters of experimental treatment approaches, which, although that's not entirely bad, and there may be a place for that at times, a lot of those approaches lack evidence and connection to what we know across research disciplines. So ultimately for long-term change, I mean, I've done a lot of study self-determination theory. I spent all of my doctoral undergraduate studies, even in research, studying change. So researching it. But ultimately, people need to intrinsically want to change. So external pressures can be an initial motivator potentially. But at some point, they have to identify the change with their intrinsic values. And of course, motivation and internal motivation is one aspect of that. But beyond that, motivational interviewing is a common approach. And there's been a lot of research related to that. But one of the things for motivation or motivational interviewing that they emphasize is, and not just STEM self-determination theory as well, but that it takes more than just motivation. It also takes knowledge. Person has to know what they need to do to change or how to change. They also need the resources to change, and then over resistance because people are going to meet some level of resistance as well along the way. And so that motivation, knowledge, confidence, resources does have to outweigh the resistance.

Timothy Zercher 3:45

So absolutely. Well, and I know a lot of your work centers around trauma, crisis, and kind of the treatment of multiple co-occurring illnesses. What have you learned about helping clients feel ready to engage in that difficult but very necessary work, right? I mean, you talked about motivation and the drivers of it, but how do you make clients feel ready to actually start the fight, so to speak?

Clint Hardy 4:08

Yeah, well, first off, usually the fact that people come to therapy in a clinical setting shows some level of motivation, although those external pressures can be strong too, especially with a lot of my clients. But there's a few different things here. But one is it's critical to meet the client wherever they're at and recognize that it may not be where I want them to be at, where's ideal to be at for whatever you know, therapeutic modality I'm using, or where others, parents or family members want them to be at. So I really have to be willing to meet them where they're at. And that could conflict with, I have to be aware of my own biases in that. So because often I can have people coming in with they may be in a place that may conflict with my own personal values or other things like that or professional values, but I have to be willing to meet them where they're at and then work from there. And I think sometimes we get easy for clinicians, sometimes that we can kind of overcomplicate trauma and suicide work. So they're both can be very heavy. The therapies that work for complex trauma or an isolated trauma, same therapy modalities, also the evidence for working with individuals with suicidality, as far as you know, the evidence-based approaches, using very similar modalities there as you are with depression or other things without suicide ideation in it. And so I think it's important for us to not overcomplicate our work and keep it simple, right? But then also I think you got to really build hope with clients. So if clients come in and they're overburdened with hopelessness, contemplating suicide or have been thinking about it, oftentimes they're thinking about it more than they may reveal because there's a lot of shame in that or stigma in expressing that. Especially I work with a lot of men as well. And so that can be more so or more common there. But also going through, depending on the traumas, there's a lot of shame. Especially I work a lot with sexual trauma or other things where there can be a lot of shame tied to that, at least for the individual. And so I think from starting from session one, we've got to build hope for it with them so that they can see that, hey, like things can get better. And so a couple key components to that is there's always the first kind of intake session, obviously, but then really dedicating a session usually uh with a little bit of motivational interviewing, but also providing a discussion and emphasis on the overall frameworks of whatever approach I'm going to use with them and showing the evidence and research there, but then connecting it in a way that relates directly to them to where they can actually see. Ideally, they haven't, you know, it's really fascinating, I guess, if to see clients have aha moments when I'm just doing psychoeducation with them because they've never really had some of the not just the approach, but the theory behind it and the evidence really explained in a way that you know that they can really identify with. If they can identify with that, they can envision or visualize themselves making that change, that's gonna bring hope. So hopefully I address that question, but no, definitely.

Timothy Zercher 6:59

I think that makes complete sense. I think if I might summarize kind of what you're saying, I think is how I'm understand it, right? Making them feel ready to start the work is more about making them feel the hope that the work will result in something, right? Yeah.

Clint Hardy 7:12

That they can recover, yeah.

Timothy Zercher 7:14

Absolutely, which makes complete sense. And I do think a lot of people overcomplicate this kind of work. Not that it isn't complicated, right? I know it is, but I totally see what you're saying. So last couple of questions I want to ask. We are a marketing team that specializes in behavioral health, so we always have to ask some marketing type questions. What is working best for you right now to engage with the clients that are the right fit for you?

Clint Hardy 7:36

You know, I probably need to place more emphasis on my marketing strategy. A lot of my marketing strategy focuses on increasing my own specialization and marketable skills. So I think as I specialize more and gain additional training, you know, the hope is that sets me apart for clients looking for clinicians. And so that I have more qualifications through trainings that that kind of fit what they're looking for. I do target, I'm broad, but I'm also narrow in kind of my approach, meaning that I specialize heavily in trauma and suicidality or suicide prevention, but then depression and anxiety closely overlap with that, right? And so those are kind of my primary areas of focus. But then I'm also expanding some of my training into like OCD and some of the evidence-based therapies with there, mainly because of the overlap with clients that I have with PTSD or other things. So, yes, I think knowing who you are as a clinician and what you really specialize in, I think matters. And then being able to present that on your website or whatever marketing platforms are used. But uh, I haven't had to do too much more than that, fortunately. So yeah.

Timothy Zercher 8:46

No, that makes complete sense. You say you need to work more on your marketing, but it sounds like you have a much better handle than some, right? Focus on what makes you different than the general market and then communicate that clearly. That is the basis of all good marketing, in my opinion. And many people forget that, then they focus too much on just a fan, a fancy logo or a really attractive looking website or whatever. And it's like, yep, that's great. What's the actual differentiators that you're talking about? So that makes complete sense. Last question then what is one marketing tactic that you're either considering or just watching really carefully in the marketplace that other maybe other practitioners are doing?

Clint Hardy 9:20

So, I mean, I'm paying a lot of attention to, you know, AI, VC or investor-backed uh therapy companies or mental health organizations. I I mean, I think that it's coming. And so I don't know if I'm paying so much. I'm obviously looking at the marketing of it, but also just paying attention to kind of the innovation that's coming from that and and that will be coming from that, right? And then adapting based off of that. So again, I think it kind of goes back to for me, because I'm a soap practitioner, will be expanding in the near future with a couple other clinicians, but a big hesitation to doing that has been, you know, following market trends in terms of being able to offer competitive pay to therapists or other things like that as a private practice owner versus a VC backed organization. But beyond that, it's just kind of going back to really focusing on who I am and not just who I am individually, but professionally and what I want to focus on and different continuing to differentiate that as much as I can.

Timothy Zercher 10:18

So yeah, yeah, that makes complete sense. Yeah, I think a lot of of smaller clinical groups are really watching the activity of the PE, of many large PE backed groups that are entering many different markets at the same time. It's creating a lot of disruption. And sometimes disruption is good, sometimes it's bad, right? It's a fine balancing line. Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate having you on. We appreciate the uh the work you're doing for your clients. I know it's not easy work, but I'm sure you're making a big impact, which is good for everybody, I think.

Clint Hardy 10:45

Thanks, Tim.

Timothy Zercher 10:46

Absolutely. Thank you. Bye bye.